Amanda Northcutt (00:00)
Hello, you're listening to the Level Up Creators podcast. Amanda Northcutt here, founder and CEO. We help consultants, coaches and thought leaders like you turn your knowledge and experience into rock solid recurring revenue businesses. And we're so glad you're here. Welcome. Today, my special guest is Dustin Reichman. He is a serial entrepreneur and the founder of Seven Figure Leap. He specializes in helping mission driven experts build seven figure brands by telling their story. Welcome, Dustin.

Dustin Riechmann (00:24)
Thanks Amanda, it's awesome to be here.

Amanda Northcutt (00:26)
I'm super glad to have you. You and I were introduced last year by mutual friend, Tony de Lorenzo about I last fall. And that resulted in my team and I signing up to take your podcast profits accelerator. And I feel like we've had kind of a wonderful professional relationship and budding friendship since then. And so I'm super here, super glad to have you here on the podcast today. And we were just talking before I hit the record button. Dustin and I are both feeling like absolute trash, but we showed up today over here.

Dustin Riechmann (00:52)
Ha

We're gonna be pros, right? was like, gotta tell my kids that, like, you know, within reason, you gotta be a pro, you gotta commitment, show up, do your best, we're gonna make the most of it.

Amanda Northcutt (00:58)
That's right.

Yes, that's right. We're bringing all the grit and resilience that we've built through our years of entrepreneurialism today on this podcast. But please excuse our voices are a little bit off. So that's all right, because you have a ton of wisdom and knowledge to share and you've helped so many business owners become wildly successful. And I'm pumped, mean, for all the wisdom and knowledge bombs you're going to drop for our audience of entrepreneurs and thought leaders today. But let's start by backing up just a few steps.

You have a pretty interesting background as a serial entrepreneur, both in the digital product space and in e-commerce and consumer packaged goods. So take us back to how you got your first, into your first business and walk us through kind of how that led to where you are today running Seven Figure Leap with your flagship offering the podcast Profits Accelerator.

Dustin Riechmann (01:51)
Yeah, I'm excited to, and I know a lot of your audience comes from like a quote unquote professional background, rather corporate background, initials after their names, those sort of things. And I do too. So for about 17 years, I was a professional engineer. so ⁓ probably in some of the ways I teach and some of the systems that we deploy, that'll kind of still shine through in how I do things. But, you you can't take the engineer out of the guy ultimately, but I did engineering and about halfway through my career, I just sort of had this pull.

I didn't know what it was called at the time. Now we would call it a creator or an entrepreneurial itch. Right. And I'm like, there's, there's something more here than just what I'm doing nine to five. And so my wife and I were doing marriage ministry and I just felt this call in 2009 to bring that online. And so that's when I created my first website, kind of in the heyday of blogging ended up doing a lot of collaborations, wrote a book, did some speaking. And so that was really the entry point for me in like an online business. It was very much a side hustle, but it pulled me into the world of digital marketing.

And I found that like that kind of traffic engineering, not the car vehicle traffic engineering that I had been doing professionally. The website traffic engineering was way more interesting to me. And it took me a long time. I was doing the side hustle thing for, well, I guess eight years. Ultimately, I had a bunch of different online businesses, but I didn't leave engineering until the end of 2017. And when I did that, I got into this other business, the consumer packaged good that you referenced called fire Creek snacks. So the first business engaged marriage.

It's actually where I met Tony who introduced us in the marriage niche. That was a courses, a membership site, books, sort of digital information product business. And then I did a bunch of consulting for a bunch of clients and then physical products entered my life in 2018 after I left engineering and I became a partner in a business called Fire Creek snacks and we sold meat sticks. So everyone's always like, how'd you get into, you know, podcast guessing? I'm like, well, it meat sticks, of course.

And so I had this meat stick business, completely different side of the world. got into like retail, brick and mortar, wholesaling, went to a dozen trade shows in 2019 and learned how to sell on my toes and all that that entails. And so that was sort of the path forward. was like 50 50 partner in this business, still doing some marketing consulting. Life was good. I was a full-time entrepreneur. was doing the thing.

And then, know, March, 2020, I woke up, I'm driving to Chicago for a trade show and they're like, Hey, Dustin, trade shows canceled. And they're like, what? So I come home, lose half my clients, you know, who are local businesses and shut down for COVID of course. And the silver lining and all that is it pushed me toward a whole different chapter, which was like, how can I market from my house? How can I sell meat sticks to strangers on the internet without them sampling them? And it turned out that storytelling specifically on other people's podcasts.

Amanda Northcutt (04:13)
Right, yeah.

Dustin Riechmann (04:40)
was the way I did that. And that sort of enters the chapter that I'm we'll focus most of our time on today.

Amanda Northcutt (04:46)
Oh my gosh, so many questions are coming from that. That is an unusual path to say the least. Like everybody that I talk to, whether a podcast guest or become a client or just a networking contact, it has an extremely nonlinear path. And I wish someone would warn us when we're younger. It's the twisting road. then when you're 40, 50 years old and you look back and like, oh, this makes sense. This makes sense why this happened and how this went the way that it did.

Dustin Riechmann (04:48)
Hahaha!

Amanda Northcutt (05:13)
Let's look back a little bit. I want to dive into like you're a full-time engineer and you have a side hustle with your wife. You also have three children. So I mean, how was life, I guess from 09 to 2017, how did you manage all of that? And then what was the trigger that gave you the confidence to move to full-time?

Dustin Riechmann (05:32)
Yeah, great question. And as I reflect on it, 2009, when I decided like, was our first vacation without kids were on the beach. And of course I'm reading a book and I'm reading a book called No More Dreaded Mondays by Dan Miller. And I remember like a lightning bolt. I'm reading this book and it's like, Hey, everyone should have a creative outlet. That was kind of the thesis of the book is like, you don't have to just do one thing with your, with your professional life.

And that's was like, Hey, we're doing this ministry stuff. It's like stuck in church basements. enjoy it, but like, there's gotta be a better way. So that was the initial spark to try something online. And then I had this chapter where, yeah, my wife and I were doing this, mostly me. And I was pulling her along begrudgingly to like speaking engagements and hosting marriage retreats and stuff. ⁓ and, that, what that did for me was gave me the confidence that like, I could do this, right? Like, this is completely outside of the realm of my training and the stuff I'm

have accolades for as a professional with a master's degree in engineering. Like it's a whole different identity. It's like, I'm not certified in anything with marriage. I'm not a digital marketer at that time, right? Like, but I'm doing all this stuff and it's working. And so it pulled me over into the world of digital marketing. And so there was this period there where my wife was a stay at home mom. had three kids because in 2009 we were pregnant with the third. So we on vacation, came home pregnant. So we actually had two kids and had the third on the way.

And so, yeah, to add even more kind of pressure into the situation, I, in 2017, kind of the culmination of all this, when I made this final decision, I guess you could say, I think this is really instructive for the listeners if they're in a, in some sort of position with their business or maybe they're doing the side hustle thing and they want to be a professional creator or professional online business owner. I know it sounds silly and it does to me in hindsight, but I had this sort of epiphany moment in the summer of 2017.

I had done some marketing work. So I had some clients. I had the marriage business that was still generating income. And I had like total golden handcuffs, right? Like my wife was the stay at home mom. I had the insurance, I had the 401k and like, had a full identity and a full like, yeah, just like persona that was like the engineer guy. And I felt like that was like my thing. And I was like,

But I want to do something else. And I felt like for five years, it sort of tried to wear both identities and both hats. It was a real struggle, but I had this epiphany moment that, Hey, I could like go try entrepreneurship. And if I suck at it, I can go back and be an engineer. know, like I, I know it sounds obvious and now, but like, felt like this was a permanent decision. And when I finally freed myself of like, it's not a permanent decision, it's an experiment and I'm not.

Amanda Northcutt (07:53)
you

Dustin Riechmann (08:13)
bad at engineering, I'm not getting like blacklisted from the industry, I'm just choosing to go try something else for a while. So I gave myself the freedom and I talked to my wife and got my kids enrolled and said, hey, like the next six months, like I work way too much, I'm gonna work even more. For the second half of 2017, I'm gonna try to do like full-time consulting on marketing for businesses and I'm gonna keep my job going. And at the end of 2017, if I hit certain benchmarks with the savings, we got a runway, I'm gonna make this leap on January 3rd when we come back.

from the holiday and that's exactly what I did. yeah, so January 3rd, that's when I told my boss why I'm like that I'm leaving and why, and you know, the funny thing in hindsight is in that same meeting where I had all this fear and like, ⁓ I'm irreplaceable. He's like, cool. Also, I'm the president of the engineers club and we need to do a website. Do you do that? And I'm like, I do. And he became one of my first clients. And then they kept me on contract basis to help find and trim my replacement. So this transition out that I thought was like doomsday.

was actually pretty awesome. ⁓ But yeah, hopefully that's useful for someone who's dealing with a tough choice. It's probably not a permanent decision, right? And so like, give yourself some grace, treat it as an experiment and you might find some really cool opportunities on the other side.

Amanda Northcutt (09:25)
I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And what a serendipitous moment with your former boss. That's really, really cool. That had to feel like such an incredible just like signal that, okay, this is the right path for sure. And I love that you're talking about, there's a lot of things going on in my brain right now, but okay, I love mental models. Like I'm obsessed with mental models. And the mental model you're talking about is two way door versus one way door.

So two-way door decisions are impermanent. You can walk back through the door. That doesn't mean it's gonna be painless or anything like that. But you don't have to put as much ⁓ pressure on yourself if it's a two-way door decision. One-way door decision, yeah. You wanna be like real, real sure about that one for sure. But I think thinking about it and being concerned about, I mean, one, most of us entrepreneurs have imposter syndrome. So that's going on. It's like, what are my...

parents gonna think? What's my spouse? What are my friends gonna think? And my neighbors and my colleagues and my boss. And so this feels like we're in this pressure cooker. But if you can think a little bit more expansively and at the big picture, ⁓ I think, mean, Dustin, you're like a huge testament to just making, ⁓ using your engineer brain, the left side of your brain to make a very logical decision. I mean, like that's a legitimate plan. Like this runway equals this amount of freedom for this experiment. You talk to your boss.

Okay, and that's also the way that we should all be thinking about marketing in our businesses as well, is that marketing is dedication to rigorous experimentation, putting on your fifth grade science hat, coming up with a hypothesis, designing an experiment, administering the experiment, reviewing your results, and then designing the next experiment based on your learnings. And another, I don't know if it's technically a mental model, but it's like we don't learn from experience, we learn from reflection upon experience. And so I think there's like a lot that you can bring in and apply.

and like rinse and repeat to every area of your business no matter where you're at. So see, you're already dropping all the wisdom bombs even with a fever going.

Dustin Riechmann (11:17)
Yeah, I'm

glad you distilled that back because it's so true. And as you were talking about those models and the fact that you actually learned from the reflection on the experience, you know, we're not going to, we have to go through every chapter of this journey. But as I think about the things that led up to this pivotal conversation in the beginning of 2018, and then all these other chapters that have followed, right? The marketing consulting, the meat stick business, um, kind of getting into coaching for the first time all the way up into what we do now with the.

seven figure leap brand, it's all been a series of experiments. It's all been a two way door and, I've recognized it in advance, right? And I've accelerated at every step. now I look back at this weird timeline and these kind of disparate experiences, they start to make sense in hindsight only. And the dots do start to connect and the, and the iterations between dots become shorter and shorter as I've gotten older and wiser and I've experienced things. And I've realized that

These aren't permanent decisions. There's a door I can walk back through. And with that comes so much freedom and to me like energy and creative energy and enthusiasm. Because I love to try new things, of course, but I like to be able to do it with a logical plan behind it.

Amanda Northcutt (12:27)
Yes. So love, yeah, I love all the engineering pieces that you're bringing, but then the marketing, you've got a lot of like creativity there. So this must be very interesting. Your brain must be a very interesting place.

Dustin Riechmann (12:30)
You

It is, yeah. That's my wife. She's like, what are you thinking?

Amanda Northcutt (12:42)
Okay, well, let's double click a little bit on this. Okay, it's March of 2020. ⁓ crap. The meat stick business is kind of hits a turning point as many of our companies did in March of 2020. And ⁓ tell us about from March of 2020 to maybe just the next couple of years with like how Seven Figure Leap got launched, what happened with ⁓ Fire Creek snacks. If you don't mind walking us through that.

Dustin Riechmann (13:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, I'd love to. So again, we were doing a very in-person model for growing fire Creek snacks. We had an e-commerce business and it was working. ⁓ but the thing that was 80 % of our business was wholesale and it was like, how do we get into brick and mortar stores? And there was a very proven model that we were following with this trade show thing. And then that was all pulled out. That was all taken away as an option. ⁓ and likewise, I had a very.

tried and true way to get new marketing clients that I was basically paying my bills with, right? Like Mark Fire Creek was sort of the big bet. It was like, Hey, let's not take profit from this. Let's reinvest it. Let's grow this for an exit. That was sort of the plan for that. And so I had my day to day paychecks coming from marketing clients. Some of them were online and some of them flourished in COVID. They were e-commerce businesses, but most of them were local businesses, right? Like my dentist, my real estate broker. And so they were very much taken away from me too.

Amanda Northcutt (13:54)
Yeah.

Dustin Riechmann (13:59)
through no fault of mine or theirs, know, just the way that everything went with COVID. So yeah, so in that time, there's several months of very dark period where I had no idea what the hell I was going to do. was like, I, like, maybe I go back to engineering, you know, engineering was there. It was available. That was a bit of a security blanket psychologically, but I didn't want to do that. And it felt like that was a real failure at that point. And so I found myself listening to podcasts a lot.

Amanda Northcutt (14:11)
Yeah.

Dustin Riechmann (14:24)
Because what else was I going to do? I go on the bike trail and listen to podcasts, but I had been listening to podcasts for years. And in fact, we had modeled fire Creek snacks, like the pricing and some of the distribution model from a company called chomps. And I learned about chomps through podcasts. I was like, their founders are always on podcasts. I'm like, well, they are very successful, you know, and they become even way more successful since the last five years. I'm like, why? And they still do it. Like, why are these founders on podcasts giving away their secrets? You know, ⁓ but I've consumed it.

So that was really what got me in like June, July of 2020. was like, I feel like there's something here. We have a really cool story. Like my business partner and I had a really cool story about why fire Creek snacks was different. Sort of the small American business story, especially in COVID. Um, cause it grew out of a brick and mortar enterprise. And so I pitched my first show basically saying, I think I could add value. I didn't know what I was doing, but as I think I can have a cool story here about how we took a brick and mortar store.

And made an online business work from it, which is exactly what we had done. And it suddenly became timely with the COVID story. And they said, yes. And so, yeah, so I started doing that and basically about every week or two weeks I'd be on a new podcast. And I just started making that my, my machine. That was like the marketing system and fire Creek snacks grew pretty rapidly through direct sales, but mostly through relationships that were coming from these podcasts interviews, right? Like someone would reach out and we'd talk and then I get it.

conversation with the buyer or we ultimately ended up in Walmart. ultimately ended up in snack nation, which was the biggest subscription box company in the country. So we had a lot of success with fire Creek and then started to turn about a year into this experience after we had seven big years and it kind of became its own story. How fire Creek snacks grew without paid ads and with like through storytelling. And all of a I'm like, this is actually a cool hook. And so then people started asking me to talk about that. And then people started saying, how are you doing this?

And so the whole like entry point into a coaching business, which I never identified as a coach. I was like, I do marketing for people. sell meat sticks. do marriage, you know, information products. I'm not a coach, but I became a coach because in 2021 people started saying, what would it look like to work with you? And so that was the first time I had to kind of give a number and say, well, give me this much money and I'll meet with you on zoom, I guess, and we'll figure this out. And I did that about a dozen times. And then I realized.

There's a system behind this, right? And it's like, I'm doing the same kind of work with each of these people. And so I created my first small group coaching experience in 2022. And then that was cool. And it was like better money and it was better leverage. found that I actually enjoyed the format. And then I got into a mastermind for the first time story for another day. It was actually a horrible experience, but I learned a ton about how I did and didn't want to treat people. Right. And so, and I've kind of found out the appeal of a mastermind.

Amanda Northcutt (17:08)
Okay.

Dustin Riechmann (17:17)
And so mid 2022, I'm coming out of that experience. I'm like, Hey, I've been doing digital marketing for 15 years. I've worked in pretty much every industry on earth. And I've got all this weird experience with engineering and proposals and all the stuff we did there. And I've got this podcast guesting experience that at that point I've been doing for two years. And so I married the two up. And then the fall of 2022, I created and launched what's now called the podcast profits accelerator. And that became the flagship program. And so.

I'm trying to fill in the gaps because I know you have an audience full of creators and they probably care about like, where'd this offer come from? So a pretty granular, uh, diagnostic of like how this happened, but fall 2022, I launched the very first podcast profits accelerator. It's a 90 day program. And the front end of it is podcast guessing, like how to get on podcasts. And then the backend of it's more like business acceleration, right? Like how do you offers and sales funnels and things like that. And in fact, Tony.

Delorenzo, our mutual contact was in the very first cohort of this, of this program. And so fast forward for the past almost three years now, that is the primary thing that we do. We've now got a seven figure business running cohorts of the podcast profits accelerator. We've got our own mastermind on the back end of that now that I'm sure we can talk about. but yeah, Amanda, that's. That bridges the gap. Like that is the whole story really between, ⁓

Amanda Northcutt (18:35)
Yeah.

Dustin Riechmann (18:38)
stumbling

into coaching and then figuring out an offer that worked and then doubling down on it and then just fully committing to it and doing only that we're now in our 15th cohort of that program.

Amanda Northcutt (18:48)
Congratulations. Okay. There is one part you left out though. What about Storybrand? You are a Storybrand guy. You talk about the story with Fire Creek. So how does Storybrand kind of fit into all this? I know a lot of your network has come from Storybrand and then that has helped, you know, accelerate the growth of the podcast profits accelerator. So how does that tie in?

Dustin Riechmann (18:49)
Thanks.

yeah!

Yes.

Yeah, it's great. Great point. And I'll say Storybrand, I want to talk about specifically how this enters the equation, but what I hope the audience will hear too is like just the power of communities, aligned communities, right? Like Storybrand happens to be one for me. So I started this in 2022, fast forward to spring 2023, I'm three cohorts in, like, found my unique ability. I'm like, I like this, this is fun, this is growing. And through an alumni of the second cohort,

Her name is Brooke. She's like, Hey, Dustin, I got a friend named Macy, who I want to introduce you to. So I had no idea what story brand was like, I'm sure I'd read the book because everyone's read the book and it came out in like 2017. So I was a little bit aware, but I wasn't pursuing story brand, but I got on this call through a referral with Macy. And so I had this conversation and she's an awesome person. We really vibe on all the work that she's doing. She's helping authors launch books and she's got all this really cool frameworks and stuff around story.

And we get to the end of the call and she's like, you know what? Like, I think I should be in your program. I'm like, awesome. You know, like everyone wants to hear that when you're selling a program, especially a cohort. And I'm like, we start in March, you know, and she's like, Oh, great. Well, let me check with my boss. And I'm like, hold on like record scratch, you know, like you have a boss. Like I thought I was talking to her. She's an entrepreneur. Turns out she was doing entrepreneurial things, but she also had a day job, which happened to be the director of certifications for Storybrand. And so the way Storybrand entered my world is kind of through the back door.

Amanda Northcutt (20:10)
No.

Dustin Riechmann (20:34)
And that she went to her boss, Donna Miller. They said yes. ⁓ and so actually story brand hired me in effect, cause they put Macy into my program to learn what I teach and take it back to story brand. And so that was the start of what's become a beautiful relationship. And quickly thereafter, I found out what they really do. And I fell in love with it. Basically all the money they gave me, I gave back and I said, certify me and story brand. And so I went and got certified in that.

Amanda Northcutt (20:38)
You

Dustin Riechmann (21:03)
And yeah, to your point, we have like 200 alumni of our program and over 30 are Storybrand certified. And so a significant part of our community and our network comes from Storybrand because there's such a great overlap between what we do and what they do because they teach people marketing principles and how to sell through story, how to do marketing through Storybrand frameworks. And so I use those tools in my program and I am Storybrand certified. So I'm allowed to do that.

but I'm not a Storybrand program, if that makes sense. Yeah, that's how the Storybrand enters the room. Kind of about three cohorts in unintentionally, and they were my client first, and then I quickly kind of fell in love with what they did, and we've really supported each other ever since. I got to speak at the Storybrand Summit my very first year as a guide, and just just continued to deepen. Macy's in my mastermind, like her and I are still very, very close.

Amanda Northcutt (21:54)
Wow, that's surprising. I thought you were gonna tell me that Storybrand came in at least before or during Fire Creek, ⁓ like before you started sharing on podcasts and everything, it sounds like you really nailed the narrative around Fire Creek. And so you sound like a natural fit. And I assume the Storybrand certification only enhanced your ability to do this.

Dustin Riechmann (22:03)
No.

Yeah, it's

been an awesome tool. It's been an awesome tool set community. Donald Miller's become a really good, you know, kind of not that we're buddies, but like a good mentor from afar of like how he's scaled a company and kept the soul of what makes it special. Like there's a lot of things about story brand that I admire. And like I I did read the book. I was kind of being facetious, like a story brand aware, but I, my point was I wasn't like seeking story brand as like a tool. It kind of found me and I'm like,

this is awesome. And then it's just become this very virtuous ⁓ relationship both ways.

Amanda Northcutt (22:47)
So cool. Okay. Well, thank you for spending 20 minutes unpacking your story. That is really, really helpful. And it's an important thing for people who are listening, who are thinking about jumping ship from corporate or, you know, have a fledgling consulting or coaching firm that like, okay, there is a way to do this and there's, you know, lots of ways to skin the cat, if you will. There's not like one path. It's not a linear path. And so it's really nice when people would just like,

Dustin Riechmann (22:51)
You

Amanda Northcutt (23:10)
peel back the curtain and show what's actually going on. It's not like this smoke and mirrors thing where, I'm just an overnight success and da, da, da. No, we don't talk to anybody like that. I don't believe in overnight success. And so it's always like this building up to something and then finding exponential leverage, which you found based on the culmination of your seemingly disparate experiences. And then you've put it together in this one seven figure organization, which is really, really, really cool. And I love that.

is it's a virtuous cycle of you're helping other people and other entrepreneurs build their businesses and be more impactful and effective. I mean, I know your crew and the people in your community and their people who deserve to be elevated and for their skills to be on display for the world and shown and helping other people. So I think you've got a really great kind of flywheel going on on that side of the thing, that side of things too. So thank you again for sharing

All right, so let's dive into the tactical bit. So first of all, I already mentioned imposter syndrome and putting yourself out there and pitching yourself to be a guest on other people's podcasts can be pretty freaking intimidating for some people. So how do you dust in with your methodology, kind of like reduce that barrier to entry, ⁓ both mentally and like practically so that, you know, anybody in your program or that knows your methodology, it feels really empowered and equipped to go out there and be successful as a podcast guest, specifically as a first step, like pitching themselves.

Dustin Riechmann (24:28)
Yeah, that's a great question. I it's multifaceted. would say one of the keys to confidence is clarity. so one of the first, well, the first thing that we do with everyone, and some people know they need it. A lot of people don't, but when they experience it, all of a there's this like rush of confidence and the imposter syndrome sort of like takes a back seat is clarity. so clarity comes in a lot of forms, but you know, we work. So the first thing that we work on, we call it purpose, but really it's answering the question of.

Why do you want to be on podcasts? And sort of like, why do podcasts want to have you? Right. And so that is getting clear on, of course, your ideal client profile, but really naming the transformation you provide, unpacking your own story, unpacking your unique ability, putting words to the things that you're passionate about. Like, what are your values? And when you start getting into that zone, people realize pretty quickly that like, I am uniquely valuable, right? Like I do have something to share and while I don't maybe have

really big numbers, I do have experience that other people would value. And of course we really operate in niches. And so you are uniquely qualified to serve a specific niche with your own story and maybe with a client case study, if you have that at your disposal. And so that's big part of it is getting people clear on themselves and the things that they do and the transformation, giving them good frameworks and words to express that clearly.

And I think also really importantly is getting them clear on the reality, right? And the reality is while you may have an over-indexed version of your mind that like everyone's Joe Rogan or Amy Porterfield or Amanda Northcutt or whatever, right? Like you've got these people you admire, like you don't need to be that person. That's not who you need to be to show up and be effective. And like part of, think that what makes me uniquely qualified to help people in that position is

Amanda Northcutt (26:07)
Thanks.

Dustin Riechmann (26:20)
made a whole living on very small podcasts for the most part, right? Like small, medium sized podcasts, selling $2 meat sticks to start, right? And then getting into this world where I do talk on marketing shows and of late, I've been on some pretty cool shows, but two seven figure brands on what I would categorize as small, maybe medium sized podcasts. And that totally works, right? And so I think it's setting a realistic expectation that you don't need to be on huge podcasts. You don't have to be polished.

You just have to be you and you have to have your story clearly articulated. People will resonate with that and want to go deeper with you if they're your people and you don't need too many of your people to make a huge difference in your business. I think that's kind of the foundation we like to lay with people.

Amanda Northcutt (27:02)
Love that. And I love that you're talking about clarity. I just, right before we got on this recording, I had a call with a consultant who's really, really struggling to like find not even product market fit, but just like get some number of customers. And it was the lack of clarity. It's like your website shows that you're everything to everyone. And that means if you're talking to everyone, you're talking to no one. so ⁓ yeah, having clarity on who you are and what your special sauce is and like what you hope that your mom says about you behind your back.

Dustin Riechmann (27:31)
Hahaha!

Amanda Northcutt (27:32)
you want other people to see that, you want to bring that forward ⁓ in the right way. So, okay, but I'm going to skip around my questions a little bit. So you talk, let's talk about like niche podcasts versus mega podcasts. Cause I think that's a really, really, really important point that I wanted to make sure we hit on today. So what we found at Level Up very consistently is that being a guest on a niche podcast will generate more and higher quality, high ticket leads for consultants and coaches. Again, who are thought leaders? Everybody who's listening here. Then just about.

any other activity outside of like a warm referral and introduction from a trusted friend. So let's maybe give a few more examples of that. Like people do want to be on Joe Rogan and Amy Porterfield and Tim Ferriss and all these massive, massive podcasts. I think there's a lot of psychology around like who those guests are and people who are sort of like tethered to the ground and to earth versus people who are hosting those podcasts or guests on those podcasts. And so, I mean, I firmly believe that you're more relatable if you're on

smaller podcasts and for like individual consultants and small companies like that matters. You need to feel, you need to be perceived as approachable and yes, an expert for sure. But we don't want to bring in this sort of like, that's there for them because they were on that podcast or something. So tell me your point of view on that word vomit that I just gave you.

Dustin Riechmann (28:48)
No,

it's great. I think I want to answer it in two ways. I want to start with a really simple framework because what I want to convey to everyone listening is the listeners, the audience does matter, but they're only one part of the equation. In other words, there's lots of ways to generate value for your business by being a podcast guest that had nothing to do with the people listening to the podcast. And so I want to unpack that a little bit because that'll hopefully bring some context into like why the size matters, but not like that much. And so I,

It's kind of a silly analogy, but I talk about like a profit cake. And so it's a, it's a simple visual tool. So just think of a three layer, three tiered cake. The base layer is like the listeners. So if you're going to be on a podcast, of course you want to speak to the listeners. You want to call the listeners to action. It's the base of the cake. It's the biggest, broadest, widest piece of the cake. But in our example, at least it's also the least deep, right? This is the shallowest piece. So you think of like a thin layer that's really wide. There's a lot of listeners.

Most are never going to actually ever be visible to you. They're never going to come out of the ether, raise their hand and let you know they exist. They're just going to be anonymous listeners. Some of them will transact with you hopefully, right? But like they're kind of shallow, like there's nothing wrong with them, but they're just, most of them are never going to become visible. The middle layer of the cake, picture it gets taller, right? It's it's a more impactful layer and it's narrower. There's less of these. This is what I would call like the partner layer. So one of the ways that we've had tons of success with podcasting from

Fire Creek to this business to several hundred clients is finding collaboration partners through podcast guesting. And so by default, one will be the host. So building a relationship with a host is probably going to be really beneficial to your business because they're probably a center of influence in your industry. They have a lot of other connections. They may be a referral partner. They may be someone who wants to do a joint webinar with you. They may have a stage you can get on in other ways. So just think of this middle tier as like all the other people listening.

including the host who's hosting you, who would be great partners, but not necessarily clients. Right. And then the top of the cake and the businesses that we run, Amanda, I call it the prospect layer. So this is very narrow, but very deep. This is like, if you could choose your own ideal clients and put them in your own sales pipeline, they live in this top tier. And so they may not even be listening to the podcast when it's live, but by leveraging the podcast, we can access them.

And there's different strategies for this, but one really quick one, just kind of make this real for people is like the guest list. So you're on a show. So I'm on Amanda show right now. This gets published. It kind of gives me an opportunity to reach out to all the other guests that have been on this show and say, Hey, Dan, Hey, Tony, Hey, Amanda gets like whatever. Like I know you were on Amanda show. That's awesome. Hey, I was on Amanda show too. And now I have a warm reason.

to talk to them and some of them may be potential prospects, clients, some would be partners and some have podcasts and other platforms I might want to be featured on. Right. So there's lots more to this, but just kind of think about there's listeners, there's partners or collaboration people in the middle. And then at the top, there's this prospect tier that don't actually need to be listening to the podcast for you to get benefit from it. So set that aside is that there's lots of ways to leverage the podcast that aren't related directly to the audience.

And so it comes back to the question of a niche podcast. Like, why is that so important? Well, for one, because the people in those tiers are going to be way more clear to you because it's a niche podcast. But I think just thinking in terms of audience, have a literally an example right now. I could show you on Voxer that this morning, John Meese, mutual friend of ours, sent me a Voxer and he's like, Hey, I was on Nathan Berry's show recently and it published about three weeks ago. And he's like, I just got like my

fourth client or whatever. He made like $40,000 in the first three weeks from being on the show. He's had like hundred people booking calls, like substantial. And while I love Nathan and I was also on there recently and it's like a dream show for me because of who Nathan is. And it's not a big show. He'll be the first one to talk about his download numbers are pretty low. It's really for very specific creators at a very high tier. know, it's, it's a very niche show. It's not intended to have a broad audience.

His YouTube videos get less than a thousand views typically, right? Like this, is not a big show, highly valuable show though, obviously by John's example, I've had six or seven sales calls booked with really high level creators and mine came out last week. And so that's just a real time example of what I would call a niche show. I think one final example to drive this home is I mentioned in the fall of 2023, I spoke at Storybrand Summit. I spoke in a breakout room.

Amanda Northcutt (33:14)
Thanks.

Mm-hmm.

Dustin Riechmann (33:31)
So the whole summit's like 200 people. The breakout room had room for like 40, 45 people in it. And I was horrible. This is my first public speaking appearance in this outside of engineering in my life. It was, you know, it was not like my most polished moment, but I did it and it was niche content to a very receptive audience. And I freaking crushed it. Like I got people coming up after and like signing up. And I mean, from that one appearance with 45 people, I would say directly, there were 10 clients in that room that ultimately became clients. So six figures of revenue.

from a not great presentation to a small niche room as compared to January, like three months after that, I got to speak at Traffic and Conversion Summit, much more polished, very branded. I learned, was like, I need to make this, I was on a huge stage, several hundred people in the audience, the biggest marketing conference in the world. There's 60 other speakers, you know, it's like, I made it and it was good. And I got some clients from that, but not nearly as many as the StoryBrand experience. And that's a physical stage comparison, but it's very apropos to

podcasting, it's like this smaller niche, very hungry audience that I got to talk to at Storybrand, even with a lackluster presentation, it's probably a 10x ROI compared to the much larger, less targeted, diluted message among all the marketers at Trafficking and Conversion Summit, right? And so what I not do, Trafficking and Conversion, of course not. It's great credibility, the video from that and the screenshots from the stage, they all have their role, but from a pure...

ROI versus audience equation. Always the ROI is higher on the smaller audiences and pretty much every example that I've experienced and from all the clients that I've got to see behind the scenes. So that was a long answer, but hopefully it gives people a lot of context to what I mean by, cause this is a really, really, really common objection, I guess, or concern that people have. like, if you get on a big podcast, eat it up. It's awesome, but you don't need to. And, and I view it as a bonus, not like the foundation of the strategy.

Amanda Northcutt (35:12)
you

Yeah.

Yes, and that may be the most important thing we talk about in this hour. And so that's very important, almost like mental hurdle to overcome for everybody that like there's tremendous value. And I love the multifaceted approach too. It's not just in the recording. There's a number of different like lanes that you can travel down to like maximize the value of it. So one would be your layered cake. That's great. So relationship with the host, ⁓ assets that come out afterward and then post production promotion. There's all manner of ways that you can.

Dustin Riechmann (35:54)
Yes.

Amanda Northcutt (35:57)
repurpose this kind of content for webinar, workshop, masterclass topics, for newsletters, for social media posts. I mean, there's like all manner of content, clips, shorts, everything that can come from a video first podcast. So that's really, really amazing. And... ⁓

Let's, okay, shift gears a little bit again. And I wanna talk about like, should you start your own podcast or not? Like this is a question that I get a lot. And so I'm curious about your take on it, Dustin. ⁓ So do you end up advising a lot of your PPA clients to start their own? And if so, like what sort of conditions should exist? What's the mental model that people need to be thinking through before they take that leap?

So what signals that someone should clearly see before going all in and investing in equipment and then learning technology and editing and all those kinds of things.

Dustin Riechmann (36:48)
love this question as the quote unquote podcast guesting guy who lives in this niche, right? Like, ⁓ very often I'd say monthly, often weekly, I get an inbound DM or someone messages me and says, Hey, I got this friend. She was just talking about starting a podcast. Can you talk to her about the strategy? And I was getting on these calls and I'm like, you're gonna start a podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. ⁓ you should, but not yet. And that's, that's, that's really my answer to this is like, you should start a podcast if you want to do that.

But you shouldn't start with starting a podcast. Uh, and so what I always say is like, do guesting first. Um, I think I'm a huge proponent of like, go out and be a podcast guest first minimum of 90 days, preferably honestly, like a year, um, and go out and get a lot of reps in because it's going to give you much more clarity on who you want to talk to. You're going to find out what things you talk about are actually interesting to people, what the hooks are, what the things that generate inbound interest are. You're going to build all these relationships, right?

And then when you do start a podcast, you've got a clear strategy behind it. You know exactly what to talk about. You've got all these people you can tap on the shoulder to be part of that because you've already built the relationships by guesting. think doing a cold start, starting a new podcast without experience as a guest is really hard. There's a reason that like 90 something percent of podcasts don't make it past the first month, but especially the first year, right? Like pod fade is a, a, as a common thing that we hear about in the industry because people just

Amanda Northcutt (38:12)
Yeah.

Dustin Riechmann (38:16)
It's hard, right? You know, I now have my own podcast. It's hard. It's way easier to maintain and sustain if you have a strategy behind it. And if you're really excited about the structure and the guests and all the things that you're trying to actually accomplish with it. I went three and a half years, I'm going stream. went three and a half years only guesting, sort of wore a false badge of like, you don't need to have a podcast. You should only guess. Cause of course that's like what I teach is the guesting side. But last year,

16 months ago, I started my own podcast. Why? Because it's awesome. And there's a ton of benefit that you should do hosting and guesting, but if you're not sure exactly what you want to do and you're fully committed to it, even if you think you are, I would still go do guesting first because I still think that's the smarter move. yeah, ultimately do both, but start with guesting if you're not sure. And then yeah, if you're going to do hosting, have a full commitment, have a full strategy behind it, preferably have a team behind it because

It's hard enough to actually show up and do it consistently, let alone having to do all the technical stuff that comes with it.

Amanda Northcutt (39:20)
Yeah, that's great advice. And I will yes and that in saying that obviously there's lots of different channels for marketing, right? Podcasts one of those. And if you're guesting before starting your own, you're honoring working in low risk iterations and as your job, part of your job as founder and CEO of your company is to reduce risk at every turn. And so guesting is a very, very low risk activity. And if through guesting, you find that you get qualified inbound lead flow,

Dustin Riechmann (39:27)
Yes.

Yes.

Amanda Northcutt (39:50)
that's potentially a really good signal that like, okay, podcasting is an excellent channel. And so perhaps I will start my own and maybe run one season. So that's again, reducing risk, reducing commitment. You're setting the expectation with your listeners ⁓ and then continuing to guest because I think the fastest way to find podcast listeners is to find them on other podcasts. so you're reducing the barrier to entry in that way. So I think that's really, really super advice. And I am...

I floated a hypothesis with my, one of my group cohorts this morning, the one that Dan Cumberland's in around podcast guesting and the CTA at the end of the podcast matters a lot. And I have this hypothesis that niche podcasts are best, right? Small, know, high trust audience, the audience feel like they have a really close relationship with the host. You're coming in as like a vetted, ⁓ tried and true like person. And so the people who are listening are going to...

more likely to believe what you say. And if the CTA at the end of the podcast, the call to action is to download a lead magnet where you have to either be in the show notes or the show description in order to click a link or you have to remember a URL, the number of people who are going to do that are few and far between because you're introducing a pretty significant layer of friction, right? In a podcast, we're listening, maybe if we're watching on YouTube, but most podcasts still listen to at least more than these shows. And we're on the go, we're all busy people.

asking someone to go in, find the show notes and click a button that leads to a lead magnet landing page. Like there's just, there's inherent friction involved in that. So there's going to be a few people that do that anyway. But the few people who are willing to go in and click a CTA button for a lead magnet are the same people who are going to go in and book a strategy call with you. Like, so if you offer, you know, through the first five of your listeners to book a strategy call with me, like here's my free link for a half hour. It's not a sales call. It is a strategy call where you're like dropping value left and right.

I believe you can accelerate sales cycles by the CTA being book a strategy call as opposed to a lead magnet because again, those people who are willing to encounter that friction are probably higher intent prospects as you think about like the stages of awareness and marketing. So what's your take on that? Is that a bogus hypothesis or what?

Dustin Riechmann (42:03)
No, I think it ⁓ can be true. All these things are, you know, are like true in the right context. So I started this whole business with that exact call to action. You know, I was talking about the fire Creek story and then someone would be like, so what if someone just wants to like do podcasting? I'm like, well, I guess send me an email. I literally give my like fire Creek snacks email and be like, I'll do a free strategy call with them. We can talk about marketing, like marketing is my passion. I just happened to apply it to meat sticks, you know? And then that became.

the coaching strategy call that became all of my first dozen clients. So that totally works. I like to do what I would call a marriage of the traditional lead magnet, sort of like click to download versus the call to action and book a call. I'm kind of getting to what I think is the best of both worlds. And so I would have a call to action. I'll demonstrate this at the end of the interview. So I have a call to action that is a downloadable free, you know, piece of value.

But I make the call to action as very, very, simple as possible to where you almost can't forget it. Right. And you're going to repeat it numerous times because yes, people are typically walking. They're doing the dishes or whatever. They may stop and actually like put it in their browser on their phone and open it. That's I do that sometimes. I can't remember the last time I've actually went to a show notes though, and went to a more like onerous URL that I could never remember. So make it a very memorable short URL. And then when they get there,

Amanda Northcutt (43:23)
Yeah.

Dustin Riechmann (43:30)
This is getting more advanced, like give them the free thing that they opted in for, but also give them the opportunity to book a strategy call like really quickly if they're qualified for it. We can talk about what I mean by that if you want, but so it's kind of both, but the downside of saying the only thing you can do at the end of this episode is book a strategy call with me is the 0.1 % of people who are wanting to, who want to go make that level of commitment. They'll go do that. And that's who you really, really, really want.

But there's still the other 0.9 % that do want to know more and they do, but they still need more nurturing. They still need more education. so giving them a free resource that doesn't require them to talk to a human is still going to get more people on your email list. Right. And so it's a spectrum, but I like to open it up. still niche. I'm still in a niche podcast with a niche download, a niche lead magnet. And so I'm giving as many people as possible the opportunity to come opt in.

Amanda Northcutt (44:20)
you

Dustin Riechmann (44:27)
And then within that, I'm kind of immediately qualifying people to say, and if you want to call, do that too, right? Without having to like go through hoops to get there. So I don't know, hopefully that answers your question. It's sort of a combo lead magnet. And I found that that works the best in most cases. So.

Amanda Northcutt (44:37)
Yeah.

Yeah, sounds like

both, right? Yeah, give people who are further back on the line on the stages of awareness opportunities, still enter your funnel and ecosystem for nurturing and provide an accelerant for those who are ready to chat with you. I think that's a great.

Dustin Riechmann (44:49)
Yes.

It's

one call to action. want to make that really clear. I'm not saying like it's the end of the interview and be like, you can do this or this. It's still one call to action, one URL. And everyone's going to get the free thing, basically mechanically the way this happens, if you opt into the, the, playbook, I'm going to give everyone that wants to know about podcast guests at the end of this interview. ⁓ it's going to immediately give you that. And it's going to be like, Hey, I got like three questions so I can customize your content, which it does.

Amanda Northcutt (44:57)
Mm, okay. So you are saying lead magnet. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dustin Riechmann (45:21)
But one of those questions is a qualifying question. And if you qualify based on that question, that means I'm really raising my hand to say I could, I'm ready for actual help with this. It's going to take you to a, a page with me on a video that says, why don't we have a conversation about this? And so it allows you to book a call within the first 15 seconds of opting in. Not everyone sees that opportunity to throw not qualified. And of course you may get to that page and be like, I'm not ready for a call yet. You're still going to get the thing that you opted in for. You're still going to get nurtured.

And each of those nurture emails still gives you the opportunity for qualified to go back and book a call. So, but it's still one call to action. That's really, really, really important because people, it's probably the number one thing people mess up in an interview is they have like, check me out on Instagram and LinkedIn and DM me and email me. And it's like, no one does anything because you have a very limited opportunity to get their attention. So a very simple, short, memorable URL is the way to go.

And if you're on stage, same thing, but maybe have a QR code because you people can actually interact with that on stage. So.

Amanda Northcutt (46:20)
Right.

I like it. And that comes back to clarity all the way back around to the beginning of our chat. Okay. Awesome. Love the full circle moment. ⁓ Thank you for talking that through. That's, that's fabulous. ⁓ Okay. We are nearing the end of our time together and I want to make sure that our listeners come away with some really like practical and tactical advice. So what are a little bit of your secret sauce, maybe three to five key points of how to get on more podcasts.

Dustin Riechmann (46:25)
Yes.

Yeah. So framework we teach is five P's purpose plan, pitch, perform profit. We're not going to go through all that today. There's lots of interviews with me. If you want to Google my name and five P, but I think that we'll zone in on maybe one of those right now, which is plan at step two. So purpose is all the stuff we talked about earlier, which is like, who do I want to serve? What are my goals for podcast guessing? And once we've got some clarity on what we're trying to accomplish, then we move to which podcast should I be on? Right.

So which podcast you should be on is largely a function of what content you want to ⁓ serve up to the audience, right? So we talk in terms of a content gap. Again, we won't go into this in great detail, but to give some practical value, this is an exercise that every time I express it, people like that helped. So just imagine I use this example in deference to Tony ⁓ who introduced us. So you're a marriage coach, right?

⁓ and you're like, Hey, I want to be on podcasts. I want to get coaching leads from my marriage business. know exactly what my call to action is going to be. It's awesome. I have an assessment for these couples. So then you say, what show should I be on? And 90 % of people will make the mistake of saying, I want to be on marriage coaching shows, right? Cause I'm a marriage coach. And it's like, think about that. Not good because the people hosting the show are a marriage coach. They have their own products and services. So you don't want to do that. So if you think of you, your, your business as a circle.

You don't want to have complete overlap with the host, right? Cause then now you've just eclipsed them and it doesn't make any sense. And you also don't want to be on a gardening show because there's no overlap and like that there's no relevance. So what you want to do is create a Venn diagram, right? And so you want to have some overlap, but not too much overlap. And so in this example, the one piece of the Venn diagram, you could answer the question, what causes people to have the problem I solve? So what causes people to have marriage problems in this case, right? Lots of things cause that.

⁓ and so you might think through your own interests, your own personal history, but one example would be becoming a first time parent. So people have a kid for the first time. They realize it's really hard. It rocks the dynamic of the relationship. They start not communicating. No one's sleeping, you know. So what if you're a marriage coach who went on a bunch of podcasts that dealt with first time parenting and you became the resident expert in the marital aspect of first time parenting, right? Like they have a bunch of guests about.

food and breastfeeding and sleep schedules, but like you're the expert on relationships. So what causes the problem? That's a good way to find a good gap to fill. And the other side of this Venn diagram would be what symptoms arise from this problem, right? So if people have a marriage problems, what are some of the help they might seek? That's not just like marriage counseling. And so lots of stuff. There's lots of stuff that symptoms that arise when you have a rocky marriage or partnership or relationship, right?

One would be financial problems. So, Hey, like I'm having a problem with my spouse and we're in debt and we're not aligned on our future and we fight about money. I'm going to go listen to personal finance podcast and learn how to invest and budget and all that. Well, I could be the marriage coach who goes on personal finance podcast and helps people get better communication, clear alignment, set goals together. And that would be a huge value add to the audience.

It doesn't compete with the CPA or whatever the financial planner who runs the podcast. So that's the mindset I'm trying to like leave people with here is what causes the thing you solve, what symptoms arise from the thing you solve, those gaps, those overlaps in the Venn diagrams. Those are the sweet spots where you'll get really niche audiences who need your help. And you're going to find a very receptive host who would love to feature you, ⁓ to give that niche knowledge.

Amanda Northcutt (50:31)
man, that is such good framing. I love Venn diagrams. That's extremely practical. And that's how you can build out. I know I do that too. I do that too. ⁓ That's how you can build out your entire partner marketing ecosystem. Like not just podcasts, newsletters, communities, speaking engagements, like tangentially related, non-competing businesses and communities. So, ⁓ I love that. That's a golden nugget right there for sure. Okay. Well.

Dustin Riechmann (50:36)
I'm doing it with my fingers because, you know, we don't have a display.

conferences,

Amanda Northcutt (50:59)
Now's your opportunity to show us how it's done. Dustin, this is so much fun to talk. I could sit here and talk with business, talk about business with you all day long. But let's put a pin in it. Let's have you back for like around two, sometime in the future. It'd be super fun because we only got to like three or four of my eight or nine questions. ⁓ But if listeners only remember one thing from this episode, what should it be? And then do you have a quick parting shot and how can our listeners stay in touch with you?

Dustin Riechmann (51:02)
No pressure.

Hahaha!

Yeah, man, I think ⁓ one thing is you don't need a big audience to build a big business, right? Like if you, the riches are in the niches, it's a cliche for a reason. And, you know, podcast guessing is one channel. It's a channel I'm passionate about. It's something I think is accessible to anyone with an online business. And I think that that's why it's a really good vehicle to do this. But the big idea is find.

niche audiences who you can go resonate with. And that will help you build a big business and find leverage with the skill sets and the knowledge and the wisdom that you have to share. So that's kind of my, my big takeaway is yeah, do that. Um, and as far as call to action, so if you've listened to this and you're like, I'm pretty curious about podcasts, guessing specifically, or some of the frameworks that I talked about, you're just like resonate with, like you want to get more clarity on the transformation you provide.

You want to see the actual Venn diagram and walk through an exercise on how to find podcasts and air quotes, which could mean LinkedIn, know, ⁓ creator newsletters, LinkedIn profiles, speaking engagements, there's so many different applications of the same approach, but we'll just call it podcasts. and then you want to find how to actually pitch those podcasts once you find them. And then you want to be coached up on how to be a compelling interviewee. And then you actually want to find out all the ways that we help people monetize.

That's my call to action is I have a free, we call it the podcast profits playbook. It's an email course. You're going to get this over the course of a week and you can go to seven figure [leap.com](http://leap.com/) slash start. know, seven figure [leap.com](http://leap.com/) slash start, and that's going to opt you in. And, you know, if you're qualified and you're, and you're ready, you're also going to get an opportunity to have a call with, with me or our team. But the main thing I want to let people know is that's the way to get started. There's some beautiful visuals that we can't,

you know, show people on a podcast in this format, but this will give you all the frameworks that we talked about and much more, um, and tons and tons and tons of value. And, know, and the 1 % of people that do that and they're like, I really want Dustin's personal help and I want to be in a mastermind community and do this. That's what we do as a profession, but we give away 99 % of our knowledge through this playbook.

Amanda Northcutt (53:35)
Amazing. Thank you. And I will personally vouch for Dustin and his crew and his entire community, really, really top-notch people. And they are there to help and have a really amazing dialed in sort of methodology and way to do that. So Dustin, thank you again so much for being here. We appreciate it. And to our listeners, we know that your time is precious. We're grateful you spent some of yours with us today. If you're a subject matter expert looking to build a fully customized business in a box with a five-figure MRR guarantee, head over to [MRRExcelerator.com](http://mrrexcelerator.com/) to learn more and jump on the wait list. We'll talk to you next time.

Dustin Riechmann (53:50)
Thank you.